Thursday, December 13, 2007

Mitt Romney's Faith -- More Reflection

A recent blog over at the Washington Times hones in on the issues surrounding Mitt Romney a bit more than most other papers dare to be. So here I will post a promised video as well as the original blog entitled “Jesus and Lucifer: Spirit brothers?”, by Julia Duin. First, the video for the curious, then the Washington Times blog:

Watch the audio levels…

I wasn't planning to deal with some of the more esoteric corners of Mormon doctrine today, but the blogs are humming about the Jesus-Lucifer connection. It's the same question Republican presidential hopeful Mike Huckabee is said to ask in an upcoming Dec. 16 New York Times magazine interview, "Don't Mormons believe that Jesus and the devil are brothers?"

Associated Press leaked part of the magazine story late Tuesday.

Mr. Huckabee, who is running neck-in-neck with former Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney, a Mormon, knows there are places in Mormonism where Mr. Romney's campaign does not want to go.

Most of you may think Americans can't discuss theology, but a copy of the AP article posted on had 220 comments by mid-afternoon Wednesday, many of which dissected Mormon doctrine.

Breitbart had also posted a debate Mr. Romney had about his faith with a radio talk show host in Des Moines, Iowa; however, by mid-afternoon Wednesday, the link was not operating. Hmmmm.

"It's interesting we're having this teachable moment," Gary Cass, chairman of the Christian Anti-Defamation Commission told me. "If Romney becomes president, you will get a knock on your door and a nice-looking missionary saying, "Would you like to hear about the faith of our president?"

Adding that he grew up among Mormons in Las Vegas, "Mormons have redefined all our terms but most Christians don't know that," he said. "And most people in the media are theologically illiterate."

He's got that last part right. This morning, I was in a meeting with two of apostles from the church's Quorum of Twelve. They were making the rounds of newspaper editorial boards this week to better explain their religion to media who don't get it.

They gave a group of us at the Times some impressive statistics of a 12.8-million-member religion with 53,000 roving missionaries in 178 countries. Since 1985, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has given out $705 million in humanitarian assistance.

But when I asked M. Russell Ballard and Quentin R. Cook about the spirit brother question, they dodged it.

All they would say is that Jesus was the son of God and Lucifer was a fallen angel.

Yes, but what about a pre-historic time before Lucifer fell?

So I began trolling about. First I looked at a document, dated Janury 2000, that the two men left me. Also posted on the front page of, it is called "The Living Christ: The Testimony of the Apostles."

It says "(Jesus) was the Great Jehovah of the Old Testament."

Then I learned that several LDS apostles and luminaries, including Spencer W. Kimball, president of the church from 1973 to 1985, had referred to God having two spirit sons known as Lucifer and Jehovah.

Here is another Mormon-related site that explains the "spirit brother" connection. Basically, there was an incident before the dawn of time when God knew he would have to send down a savior. Two of his spirit sons, Jesus and Lucifer, volunteered. This is explained in Abraham 3:27 and Moses 4, both chapters in the "Pearl of Great Price," one of the LDS scriptures. When God chose Jesus, Lucifer rebelled.

The rest, as they say, is pre-history.

I will now post my input on the issue:

Thank you sooo much! Not too many papers are dealing with this aspect of the discussion which we can only scratch the surface of here. Much Appreciated WT.

Being a conservative Evangelical, I am wrestling with this theology almost like the first time I encountered it nearly twenty years ago. After studying Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons for nearly that long, it was old-hat, so-to-speak. Now, however, it is washed in a newness that has infected even the counter-cult websites. Now Mormon eschatology is being rooted around for, since many believe these are the "end-times," trying to fit every President in some manner to the New World Order and other intricate beliefs of our depraved minds… this time is no different than the six letters of Reagan's name, the "secret society" Bush Sr. belonged to, the supposed executive orders granting Clinton -- via FEMA -- control over our lives, and little Bush… now thought to be Satan himself by some holding posters in anti-war "marches" (e.g., really, anti-Bush, anti-capitalism, pro-veganism marches). The possibility of a rational discussion about theology -- given the wildness in thought from the Left, and the almost cavalier belief about core-truths in regards to religious beliefs -- is not in the cards. The McLaughlin Group proved that.

All that being said, the question that ultimately needs answering is this: would I vote for Romney if the Republican nominee. That answer is always a resounding "yes."

So the deeper philosophical questions about the impossibility of an infinite regress of gods being born to other gods (See: The Mormon Concept of God: A Philosophical Analysis by Francis Beckwith & Stephen Parish) is an exercise in futility – politically speaking.

In regards to (as a footnote here) that interview of Romney via that radio show, I have isolated a portion of that "debate/interview" that will make the brow of the eschatological fans rise. In the portion I isolated, which I will repost at my site, Mitt Romney mentions a Mormon author, Cleon Skousen. While Mitt wasn't referring in his mentioning him all the authors' works, I would be curious as to which of the authors books Mitt has read. Cleon Skousen wrote a couple of classics in conspiratorial thought (which I use to swallow "whole clothe") which are entitled for the investigative mind:

The Naked Communist; and, The Naked Capitalist.

These are usually found in any John Birch book store right next to Tragedy and Hope, by Carol Quigley, and None Dare Call it Conspiracy, by Gary Allen. This conspiratorial view that is now working its way into the back streets of the Leftist mind first came from us Conservatives (unfortunately). So the fact that Joseph Smith was a Freemason and many of the Temple ordinances are from Masonic rituals will not help in keeping this discussion grounded in rational thinking.

OoHh! … the pains of having read 1,800 [+] books cover-to-cover are now hitting home in my mind!

Papa Giorgio


A quick synopsis from explaining the "Mormon Jesus:"

Now for a little Cleon himself... take note near the end he references the ideas of the "war-in-'hevaen'" that caused (according to LDS theology) people to be born with black skin: