Feminist Extremism, Eastern Concepts in Youth Specialties and Gaia in Emergence

(Imported from the Museum of Idolatry)

What happens when seminaries abandon the Bible and no longer proclaim and defend the scriptures as the inerrant, authoritative, inspired Word of God? Answer: those same seminaries wander off in to spiritual asininity (Eph. 4:14). Here's a prime example of this from Union Theological Seminary:

"Once honored for voicing substantive theology in the Reformed tradition, Union Theological Seminary’s 2010 Sprunt Lectures will feature a feminist speaker who favors replacing the cross with a lactating breast. The event will occur May 3-5 on the seminary’s Richmond, Va., campus. Union is one of 11 seminaries that are officially related to the Presbyterian Church (USA).

Sprunt Lecturer Margaret R. Miles is emerita professor of Historical Theology at the Graduate Theological Union in Berkley, Calif. Employing a title reminiscent of the denominationally sponsored Re-Imagining God Conference in 1993, Miles’ topic is “Revisioning Historical Theology.”

“Although theologians may have claimed that crucifixion scenes exhibited the extremity of God’s love for humans, it was scenes of the child sucking at the breast that spoke to people on the basis of their earliest experience,” she said. This symbol was replaced by the cross, argued Miles, when patriarchal Western Europeans “secularized the breast.... Miles suggested that the cross is inappropriate as a symbol of God’s love because `it presents a violent act as salvific.'”

...(read more)...

Excerpt from article in regards to the Re-Imagining God Conference in 1993 (linked through photo) (see also):

....As stated earlier, a number of what appeared to be unrelated issues converged at the Minneapolis conference. The mainline denominations besieged for many years by liberalism, neo-orthodoxy, and neo-liberalism, have become a greenhouse for nurturing such destructive elements in our culture as neo-paganism, witchcraft, New Age Movement with its corollary deep ecology Gaia (Goddess/Mother Earth), and social/political radical feminism and lesbian movements....

Youth Specialties pushing the boundaries early, via heretic Tony Jones:

Let me join the chorus of voices welcoming Tic Long back to Youth Specialties, now part of the YouthWorks world.  Tic was nothing but gracious to me over my ten years of speaking at the National Youth Workers Convention, even though I know that some of my content resulted in him and the YS staff getting grief....

....At the time, YS was publishing books by emergent authors, an arrangement created by then-publisher, Mark Oestreicher. Yac was taking some heat for that, particularly from the old guard at YS — some of the long-time speakers and authors. Doug and I had heard that, and Yac confirmed it. He said that his son, Mark’s, work on contemplative spirituality was also irksome to some of YS’s more conservative constituency.

But then — and I remember it like it was yesterday — he said, “YS has always been about pushing boundaries. That’s why we started it. It was never really about youth ministry; it was always about radicalizing the church for Jesus. It just seemed to us that youth ministry was the way to do that.”

He continued, “I’ve been afraid that we’re losing our edge, becoming too mainstream. So, you know what, if YS goes down in flames because of what you guys write, that’s great! At least we’ll be true to ourselves.”

(source quoted)

Here are a few quotes from Mark Oestreicher Lighthouse Trails compiled:

On Yoga:

"[Y]oga is really just about stretching and slowing down. Sure, yoga, I suppose, could focus on Hindi or Buddhist gods or something - but it can also focus on Christ. We received a couple stomping-mad complaints about the yoga at the National Pastors Convention, saying 'putting your body in those positions invites Hindi gods to enter your body.' I'm sorry - this just sounds like heresy to me. If we don't believe Hindi gods actually exist, then why are we concerned about them entering our bodies?"—A response to the charge that YS is embracing eastern religion by Mark Oestreicher

On Eastern Religion:

"Christianity IS an eastern religion. It has all its roots in the East! It's a bit baffling to me that people lose sight of this, and insist on creating a false separation between eastern religions and (apparently) western Christianity.—A response to the charge that YS is embracing eastern religion by Mark Oestreicher

On Contemplative Prayer:

"If a Buddhist is using a breathing exercise to bring some peace to her life, well, bless her. But that should have no bearing on whether or not I choose to focus on my God-created breath."—A response to the charge that YS is embracing eastern religion by Mark Oestreicher

"On saying words over and over again: well that sure is taken out of context. It's not like we would suggest someone grab any word ('Tree!' 'Towel!' 'Beer!') and chant it over and over again-which is her implication. There is a wonderful spiritual practice, however, of repeating a phrase from the Bible and seeing what God reveals to you about it (or about Him, or about you). It's prayer: not a chant.—A response to the charge that YS is embracing eastern religion by Mark Oestreicher

Keep in mind that the above merely shows a need for a glossary when speaking to Emergents. Here is an example to bolster the Gaia portion of the Watchman article quoted:

Of course people have pointed out these connections for quite some time. Brian was just very good at ambiguous speech and double-talk combined (postmodernism) with churches not being very good with what Walter Martin said we needed: a glossary. Walter Martin makes mention that when talking to a Jehovah Witness or a Mormon, you need to understand what they mean when they say "they believe in 'Jesus,'" or when they say "they are 'saved'." The same with McLaren and others, you need to know what they mean when they say "they believe in the 'Creeds'," "in Jesus' death on the cross," and the like, as McLaren did and does say. Thankfully Brian McLaren, Leonard Sweet, and Jerry Haselmayer have helped persons like myself somewhat in this regard by writing the book, A is for Abductive: The Language of the Emerging Church. I will give an example:

C is for Creation

• What modern secularists called "nature" (a term that turned a sacred work of art into a profane source of "raw materials") and what modern Christians always linked with "versus evolu­tion" (thus turning a sacred mystery into a profane and mis­guided argument).
• What ancient Christians viewed, along with Holy Scripture, as one of God's two primary sources of self-revelation.
• What emerging Christians will cherish as God's art gallery in which we live and of which we are a part and for which we were created as planetary trustees and caretakers.

Later of course we get to the "action" (the "praxy" if you will) behind the emergent meaning:

... For postmoderns, it's "Mother Earth," holy ground tragically portrayed in the words of James Merrill: "Father Time and Mother Earth, A marriage on the rocks." No wonder the word environment is used less and less; it's too cold a word for this theology of "holy ground."

If our humaneness is most manifest in our relationships—with swallows and snails, with friends and enemies, with the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit—the modern world needed mar­riage counseling big-time. The willingness to sacrifice living systems for commerce has meant that the lungs and other vital organs of Mother Earth are being cannibalized to the point where "natural" disasters are no longer "natural" but induced.

The mad weather patterns of the past decade are a byproduct of disappearing forests (at current rates of deforestation, Ecuador will be totally barren of trees in 20 years), disappearing healthy air, and disappearing ecosystems....

There are now over 130,000 religion and ecology projects in operation worldwide. Unfortunately, very few of them are emanating from evangelical churches.

So when people like Rob Bell, Ken Blanchard, Leonard Sweet, or Brian McLaren mention "Creation," Al Gore and Rosemary Ellen Guiley are thrown into the meaning and action taken from that word/concept.

To examine the statement about "sexuality" and the presenting "a violent act as salvific," I turn your attention to Bishop Jones, a favorite among Emergents and mentioned in my proposed chapter:

Alan Jones makes sure the reader understands his reservations about such a doctrine:

The other thread of just criticism addresses the suggestion implicit in the cross that Jesus' sacrifice was to appease an angry, God.[1] Penal substitution was the name of this vile doctrine. I don't doubt for one moment the power of sin and evil in the world or the power of sacrificial love as their antidote and the peculiar power of the cross as sign of forgiveness and restoration, but making God vengeful, all in the name of justice, has left thousands of souls deeply wounded and lost to the Church forever.... The Church's fixation on the death of Jesus as the universal saving act must end, and the place of the cross must be reimagined in Christian faith. Why? Because of the cult of suffering and the vindictive God behind it.[2]

All this comes as no surprise since Brian McLaren surrounds himself with these likeminded people as well as recommending emphatically that Christians read Buddhist writers such as Thomas Merton.[3] Alan Jones holds an opinion on the virgin birth story as well, go figure. He believes that this story was born from an unhealthy view of sexuality rather than it being actual history:

I won't allow those who insist on a literal interpretations of these myths and doctrines to deprive me of my devotion to her. Was she literally a vir­gin: I don't know. I do know that in the old stories and commen­taries about her, virginity was often a code word for absolute dedication. Christ, in this regard, was even referred to as the archvirgin. But much of the emphasis on virginity arose from a neg­ative and destructive view of sexuality. So I doubt very much whether Mary was literally a virgin, but I know many who sincerely believe that she was.[4] 

Footnotes

[1] That was a straw man in case you didn’t catch it, which the “emergent critique of the modern church suffers from an over-population of,” Kevin Deyoung and Ted Kluck, Why We’re not Emergent, 151.
[2] Jones, Reimaging Christianity, 168, 132 (emphasis added).
[3] You can see a list of authors recommended by Brian McLaren on his own site. See: “‘Doubt: The Tides of Faith’ Written for Christian Single Magazine,” http://www.brianmclaren.net/archives/000159.html (last accessed 8-12-09) at Brian McLaren’s blog, http://www.brianmclaren.net/ (last accessed 8-12-09). I have to say, while there were some good authors recommended in the mix, I can see no benefit in recommending people like Thomas Merton unless you are trying to paganize (introduce mysticism) the Christian faith.
[4] Jones, Reimaging Christianity, 175 (emphasis added).

A Question Posed To Me About the Seemingly Contradictory Liberal and Conservative Aspects of the Emergent Movement

 

One should read this update/caveat to these posts for the whole story.

I was asked the following questions, and I tried to respond to them -- albeit probably unsuccessfully. Here are the questions followed by my answer:

1. I was reading the article and I noticed that it referred to the emergent church as being "conservative evangelical" This is the first time that I have read anywhere that the emergent church was considered conservative evangelical. Perhaps you can help me to understand this.
2. My question is, has Warren publicly promoted any of these or is he still just propping up these false teachers and speaking differently in the pulpit? There are many solid apologists who defend Warren like Richard Abanes and Hank Hannagraf, so I'm very confused about this man.

A couple things. I was asked to clarify the use of "conservative evangelical" in connection to the Emergent movement in the opening of my earlier post. Fair question, as is the other about Abanes and Hanegraaff. Most consider this type of movement identical to the liberal theology dealt with by J. Gresham Machen referenced in his book Christianity and Liberalism. Mark Driscoll considers this movement from which he "emerged" to be very liberal as well. In fact, I encapsulated the "conservative evangelical" for a couple of reasons. The first being that the pastor in which I built that list from the books he passed on to me defended Tony Jones as a conservative theologian. Remember that Tony has said the following (see picture, click to enlarge).

After mentioning that Tony had said these things, the personal relationship he had with him was discussed as proof for this. So this was mentioned in "quotes" to make sure that those who know the back story of me leaving this church that are still at the church can click that this theology is not conservative. That's number one. Secondly, many of the leaders considered to be intellectual thinkers in the conservative evangelical movement should truly not be considered such in their understanding of theology and the Bible. Here is a great example that hits close to home for this arm-chair apologist. I love J.P. Moreland! His book, Scaling the Secular City, is a must for any honest skeptic or true apologist. However, he advocates this meditation as we see here in this excerpt from David Cloud's book, Contemplative Mysticism: A Powerful Ecumenical Bond -- and please keep in mind that in the terminology of the emergents, solitude and silence have different meanings that when we think of Jesus going off to achieve solitude. You almost need that "cult" glossary that Walter Martin speaks of:

He has written on apologetics and social issues and is a fellow of the Discovery Institute, which defends intelligent design. In recent years he has been promoting contemplative spirituality.

The Lost Virtue of Happiness: Discovering the Disciplines of the Good Life (2008), co-authored by Moreland and Klaus Issler, promotes contemplative practices. It says that "solitude and silence" are "absolutely fundamental to the Christian life." (p. 51). Moreland and Issler recommend meditating at Catholic retreat centers, meditating on pictures and statues of Jesus, and repetitious prayers.

Following are some excerpts:

• "In our experience, Catholic retreat centers are usually ideal for solitude retreats. ... We also recommend that you bring photos of your loved ones and a picture of Jesus. ... Or gaze at a statue of Jesus. Or let some pleasant thought, feeling, or memory run through your mind over and over again" (pp. 54, 55).
• "[W]e recommend that you begin by saying the Jesus Prayer about three hundred times a day. ... When you first awaken, say the Jesus Prayer twenty to thirty times. As you do, something will begin to happen to you. God will begin to slowly begin to occupy the center of your attention. ... Repetitive use of the Jesus Prayer while doing more focused things allows God to be on the boundaries of your mind and forms the habit of being gently in contact with him all day long" (pp. 90, 92, 93).

Moreland is opposed to an "overemphasis" on the Bible:

"In the actual practices of the Evangelical community in North America, there is an over-commitment to Scripture in a way that is false, irrational, and harmful to the cause of Christ. And it has produced a mean-spiritedness among the over-committed that is a grotesque and often ignorant distortion of discipleship unto the Lord Jesus. ... [The problem is] that the Bible is the sole source of knowledge of God, morality, and a host of related important items. Accordingly, the Bible is taken to be the sole authority for faith and practice" ("How Evangelicals Became Over-Committed to the Bible and What Can Be Done about It," Evangelical Theological Society speech, quoted from "Contemplative Proponent J.P. Moreland," Lighthouse Trails, Nov. 21, 2007).

We don't know who Moreland is referring to when he talks about "a mean-spiritedness among the over-committed." That is a popular strawman. But we do know that the Bible itself claims to be the sole divine revelation to man and it is able to make the man of God "perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works" (2 Timothy 3:16-17). It is obvious that if the Bible can do this, nothing else is necessary. It appears that Moreland wants to loose himself from the Bible's restrictions and launch out into the wide world of mysticism.

In his book Kingdom Triangle: Recover the Christian Mind, Renovate the Soul, Restore the Spirit's Power, Moreland again recommends contemplative meditation. He urges his readers to practice centering prayer by focusing "the center of your attention on your physical heart muscle" (p. 159). In this book Moreland recommends Richard Foster and the late Roman Catholic priest Henri Nouwen.

(pp. 316-317)

Dallas Willard and others whom we have viewed as conservative, should now be considered "conservative." Ray Yungen in his book, A Time of Departing: How Ancient Mystical Practices are Uniting Christians with the World's Religions, talks about David Jeremiah for instance:

.....While it is disconcerting to see David Jeremiah using Peter Senge and Calvin Miller as examples of those who have "secrets" for the rest of us, it is Jeremiah's favorable quoting of Sue Monk Kidd that I find most disturbing of all. As I have shown, Monk Kidd went from being a Southern Baptist Sunday School teacher to a contemplative prayer practitioner. And yet Jeremiah quotes her from When the Heart Waits in a manner that would give her credibility with his readers.

In this particular book of Monk Kidd's, she describes her journey to find her true self through the writings of Thomas Merton and other mystics. This ultimately led her to embrace the following beliefs in her next book, The Dance of the Dissident Daughter, which incidentally was already in print when Jeremiah quoted her in his book. Monk Kidd states:

As I grounded myself in feminine spiritual experience, that fall I was initiated into my body in a deeper way. I came to know myself as an embodiment of Goddess.

[...]

Mystical awakening in all the great religious traditions, including Christianity, involves arriving at an experience of unity or nondualism. In Zen it's known as samadhi. . . . Transcendence and immanence are not separate. The Divine is one. The dancer and all the dances are one.

[...]

The day of my awakening was the day I saw and knew I saw all things in God, and God in all things.

(p. 187)

Yes, thee David Jeremiah that wrote Invasion of Other Gods, a great book on the early influence of New Age on the church, who is now himself quoting a wiccan/neo-pagan positively. A couple of years ago Francis Beckwith, while President of the Evangelical Theological Society (ETS), stepped down to reconvert to Roman Catholicism. While I wrote about this in a more positive light in 2007 (yes, Dr. Beckwith found the time to stop by and comment on my meager post)... I wouldn't have been so nice now. In fact, I am looking forward to reading his book (when I have the time) Return to Rome: Confessions of an Evangelical Catholic for clues that I am only now coming to grips with. I bet he, the leader of conservatism in Evangelical theology then, left after some time practicing this "centering prayer"/"contemplative prayer."

Look, put another way, as Roger Oakland aptly points out in his book, Faith Undone: The Emerging Church... a New Reformation or an End-Time Deception, there is a unifying factor to the emerging church and this new mysticism. That is:

Contemplative spirituality is a vital element of the emerging church. In fact, wind is to a sail boat what contemplative prayer is to the emerging church. Without it, there is no momentum—it is woven into the very fabric of the emerging church's ambience.

(p. 81)

This movement has reached far and threatens to undermine a large portion of the "church universal" if not discussed at the donut and coffee bar at our churches. We need to be able to equip ourselves with what is coming on the horizon, before its too late. Also, conservative (truly conservative) churches must be ready for the influx of people like myself looking for a more solid foundation to transplant to.

I hope I asked the question asked of me in the PM and of SolaSaint... although I doubt it eased any troubled feelings about such great men compromising on the written word. I wish to quickly note here that this movement found its strength in the writings and movement of neo-orthodoxy/open-theology. It is the "parents," if you will, of this newer younger movement.

The Big Four

 

This post is dedicated to the following Scriptures about defending and fighting for the essentials:

• 2 Cor 10:4-5; Luke 12:49-54;
• Jude 3-4;
• Galatians 1:6-10;
• 2 Cor 11:2-4, 13-15;
• 2 Cor 13:5

If you do not know what the difference between Law and Gospel is, I encourage you to listen to a critique of a Dallas Willard Q and A with students:"Is Dallas Willard a Christian"

Various Quotes from Emergents

 (Quotes are from Lighthouse Ministries)

 

"The church has been preoccupied with the question, "What happens to your soul after you die?" As if the reason for Jesus coming can be summed up in, "Jesus is trying to help get more souls into heaven, as opposed to hell, after they die." I just think a fair reading of the Gospels blows that out of the water. I don't think that the entire message and life of Jesus can be boiled down to that bottom line." —Brian McLaren, from the PBS special on the Emerging Church

 

"Emergent doesn't have a position on absolute truth, or on anything for that matter. Do you show up at a dinner party with your neighbors and ask, 'What's this dinner party's position on absolute truth?' No, you don't, because it's a nonsensical question." Tony Jones at the 2005 National Youth Workers Convention

"Meditative prayer like that we experienced in the labyrinth resonates with hearts of emerging generations." Dan Kimball, Vintage Faith

"My goal is to destroy Christianity as a world religion and be a recatalyst for the movement of Jesus Christ," McManus, author of a new book called The Barbarian Way, said in a telephone interview. "Some people are upset with me because it sounds like I'm anti-Christian. I think they might be right."—Erwin McManus, from The Barbarian Way

"Many Christians use "Breath Prayers" throughout their day. You choose a brief sentence, or a simple phrase that can be repeated to Jesus in one breath." —Rick Warren

"The fact is that contemplative spirituality will play a huge part in the Church of the future, and candles are just the beginning." Duane Cottrell

"He [Brian McLaren] cites Dallas Willard and Richard Foster, with their emphasis on spiritual disciplines, as key mentors for the emerging church."—The Emergent Mystique, Christianity Today, 11/04

"[W]e should stop to reflect and to treasure the words, to turn them over and over in our minds, repeating them ..."—Richard Foster, Renovare

"Some of the values of the emerging church are an emphasis on emotions, global outlook, a rise in the use of arts, and a rise in mysticism and spirituality."—Josh Reich
Creating Worship Gatherings for the Emerging Church


"Church Should Be Like a Dance Club" —Josh Reich

Creating Worship Gatherings for the Emerging Church

"I stopped reading from the approved evangelical reading list and began to distance myself from the evangelical agenda. I discovered new authors and new voices at the bookstore-Thomas Merton, Henri Nouwen and St. Teresa of Avila. 

The more I read, the more intrigued I became. Contemplative spirituality seemed to open up a whole new way for me to understand and experience God. I was deeply moved by works like The Cloud of Unknowing, The Dark Night of the Soul and the Early Writings of the Desert Fathers." —Spencer Burke, The Ooze 

According to some "emergers", this is what the emerging church is all about:

— I see this idea of church as a party behind much of  emerging church thinking around the world.

— Monastic models of church are now a viable option for young people.

— The practice of pilgrimage is increasingly popular, as is  other forms of navigable worship using motion and movement like labyrinths, prayer walks, or stations of the cross.

— New technology (video loops, wonderful sound systems)  with ancient chants, candles, and labyrinths.

— While the emerging church movement is difficult to quantify ... they are blending ancient practices like incense and candles with 21st century lifestyles.

Emergent "Theologian" Tony Jones & "Slippery Slope" Arguments

 

This argument against the “slippery slope” position is often mischaracterized. Many times, like with Tony Jones response to it, an example of one fallacious argument (micro) is applied to the whole (macro). With same-sex marriage often times I hear the cross-species example thrown around in the same sentence with polygamy. This is merely a red-herring. Dennis Prager has made it a point to show, by applying the same arguments that same-sex proponents use, that if one is allowed the other follows. In fact, this has been proven to be the case in its early murmurings. On the Michael Medved show Michael had on people from who support legal cases against states that have legalized same-sex marriage saying they are discriminating against polygamous marriages. This is not a slippery slope argument. Take note:

• VIDEO: Mark Henkel Proposes Polygamy Rights WIN-WIN Solution at a Government Public Hearing - 04/22/09, posted at YouTube
• NH’s "Same Sex Marriage" Law "Discriminates" Against Polygamy - 06/04/09 op-ed at Pro-Polygamy.com 
• Maine’s "Same Sex Marriage" Law "Discriminates" Against Polygamy - 05/07/09 op-ed at Pro-Polygamy.com 
• Rick Warren's Mistake, “Forbidding to Marry” Re-Defines Marriage - 02/12/09 comprehensive essay (authored by Mark Henkel) at Pro-Polygamy.com

It is the state condoning an action by authorizing an action. An example. Running red-lights is prohibited by the law, so society says to run them causes damage and should be prohibited. Society also says that children raised by their mother and father is the best of all possible scenarios so we will support male/female marriages and give tax breaks so that the nuclear family can succeed in spending money on itself. The courts can intervene in divorce mainly due to the involvement of children. One well-known/respected homosexual sociologist and psychologist Paul Nathanson says as much:

• Foster the bonding between men and women
• Foster the birth and rearing of children
• Foster the bonding between men and children
• Foster some form of healthy masculine identity
• Foster the transformation of adolescents into sexually responsible adults

Note that Nathanson considers these points critical to the continued survival of any culture. He continues "Because heterosexuality is directly related to both reproduction and survival, ... every human societ[y] has had to promote it actively . ... Heterosexuality is always fostered by a cultural norm" that limits marriage to unions of men and women. He adds that people "are wrong in assuming that any society can do without it."

This is the same argument against polygamous marriage as well, that is: multiple persons involved in “marriage” creates undue competition and strife that is harmful to the child. Many examples of this being the case are in books and interviews found in plenty and it is not my position here to point the reader to them.

IF marijuana is legalized, will use of it increase or decrease? WHEN abortion was legalized federally, did abortion increase or decrease? If society decreases the importance of the ideal situation for raising children, will society lose or strengthen the importance of raising them? As homosexual radio show host Al Rantell points out:

What more certifiable blessing than state sanctioned marriage of two men or two women, even for a group that has offered no indication that most even desire to enter into the kind of commitments that marriage ideally entails, or that serves the real purpose of marriage. Marriage exists in order to create a stable and structured environment for couples to reproduce and raise their offspring. And so we have come to yet another chapter in the story of those who would portray themselves as victims in need of another sanction from the state. This time the price of social acceptance of gays is the redefinition of an institution that is thousands of years old and a cornerstone of society. Does that really seem like a wise and prudent choice for America to make at the wish of a handful of judges, and at the behest of those whose real goals are more political than anything else?

One other aspect Tony and other emergents seem to forego in their apparent arguments for same-sex marriage and arguments against polygamous marriage is precedence. One commentato on a Prager article said this:

One more thing about polygamy (which I oppose as strongly as I oppose same-sex "Marriage.") There is a historical context for polygamy. Middle Easterners and Africans have practiced it for centuries, long before Joseph Smith came along. It is a part of Muslim life, and Muhammad (if I'm not mistaken) had a harem. Polygamy can be put into the context of "cultural differences" but same-sex "marriage" cannot. As I have stated many times there is no historical evidence of same-sex "marriage" having been recognized by any one at any time, anywhere, ever.

This is important. Whereas polygamy can be argued in a culturally relativistic way (something emergents generally accept), same-sex marriage cannot. Which indicates to me that there is something more political behind this movement due to its taking positions far from its stated “cultural truth” ethos or epistemology. Another aspect that is often ignored is general revelation as found in Natural Law. Keep in mind it is this language and worldview that the founding documents of this country were written (including the Constitution) and that many of the emergents preach under. (I say “preach under” because they live under it influence and should consider its original intent... culturally.) Here is a response to a question I posted quite some time ago:

Question 3) What is your views on gays? Are they bad? Are they going to hell? Are you born this way?

The homosexual man or woman is just as much a sinner as you or me. We all need Christ. To touch on the hell issue first, I believe hell is a testament to free-will, and dignity as well. C.S. Lewis mentioned that hell is locked from the inside. The only thing separating mankind from God is a belief in the finished work on the Cross. By choice people reject their Creator, they choose their path, God never imposes it. Many who are saved are not immediately pure in action, nor will they ever be. Sometimes people take decades to work through their faults (counseling, prayer, reading God’s Word, etc), so just like the person who may cheat on his wife regularly, when he comes to a saving knowledge of God, he will be challenged to change his ways and seek counseling and prayer and reference from God’s Word. The same with a gay man or woman. If they truly have a saving knowledge of God, they will be challenged by the Holy Spirit to seek biblical guidance in their life, and like many others, they will turn away from their homosexual lifestyles.

However, there is a “created order,” or, even a natural order (if you do not believe in God). My argument for heterosexual (between a man and a woman) unions is usable both by the atheist (non believer in God) and the theist (a believer in God – in the Judeo-Christian sense). Here is the crux of the matter in regards to “nature’s order:”

“…take gold as an example, it has inherent in its nature intrinsic qualities that make it expensive: good conductor of electricity, rare, never tarnishes, and the like. The male and female have the potential to become a single biological organism, or single organic unit, or principle. Two essentially becoming one. The male and female, then, have inherent to their nature intrinsic qualities that two mated males or two mated females never actualize in their courtship… nor can they ever. The potential stays just that, potential, never being realized…..

“….Think of a being that reproduces, not by mating, but by some act performed by individuals. Imagine that for these same beings, movement and digestion is performed not by individuals, but only by the complementary pairs that unite for this purpose. Would anyone acquainted with such beings have difficulty understanding that in respect to movement and digestion, the organism is a united pair, or an organic unity?”

So you see, the two heterosexual organisms that join in a sexual union cease being two separate organisms for a short time and become one organism capable of reproduction. This is what the state and the church are sealing in a marriage, this intrinsic union. The homosexual couple can never achieve this union, so “natures order” has endowed the heterosexual union with an intrinsic quality that other relationships do not have or could never attain. Both the atheist and theist can argue from this point, because either we were created this way or we evolved this way. Either way, nature has imposed on the sexual union being discussed.

Also, I do not think it is wholly genetic. I believe choice is involved as well as violence. For instance, take this thought from a pro-choice, lesbian woman, Tammy Bruce:

“ . . . . and now all manner of sexual perversion enjoys the protection and support of once what was a legitimate civil-rights effort for decent people. The real slippery slope has been the one leading into the Left's moral vacuum. It is a singular attitude that prohibits any judgment about obvious moral decay because of the paranoid belief that judgment of any sort would destroy the gay lifestyle, whatever that is…. I believe this grab for children by the sexually confused adults of the Gay Elite represents the most serious problem facing our culture today. . . . Here come the elephant again: Almost without exception, the gay men I know (and that’s too many to count) have a story of some kind of sexual trauma or abuse in their childhood -- molestation by a parent or an authority figure, or seduction as an adolescent at the hands of an adult. The gay community must face the truth and see sexual molestation of an adolescent for the abuse it is, instead of the 'coming-of-age' experience many [gays] regard it as being. Until then, the Gay Elite will continue to promote a culture of alcohol and drug abuse, sexual promiscuity, and suicide by AIDS.”

What she is basically saying is that there are emotional reasons, usually trauma, or circumstances that push these young boys into the choices they make in regards to their sexuality. For instance, one of my co-workers is a homosexual man. He is a wonderful guy; I would invite him to my wedding if I could go back in time. He is very open about his past, he was “initiated” into the homosexual lifestyle by a grown black man when he was 14. In other words, he was raped. Whether he feels now that he consented, or the person was a family friend or complete stranger. This act of sex with a minor by a grown man is rape. And this rape, at an age where boys are having surges of hormones and confused about a lot of things is what Tammy Bruce was speaking to. It is a psychological trauma that if not dealt with has traumatic results in one’s life. This sometimes works its way into sexual matters. There are many homosexual people, Al Rantel (790am 6pm to 9pm), to name a more popular one, that believe marriage should be kept between a man and a woman. Tammy Bruce wants it, but she, like most Republicans, want the states to decide, and not the Supreme Court.

Also, in 1993, the biggest march by the “gay” community (Elite gay community) on Washington was held, and they had this as part of their platform:

• The implications of homosexual, bisexual, and transgendered curriculum at all levels of education.
• The lowering of the age [12 years old to be exact] of consent for homosexual and heterosexual sex.
• The legalization of homosexual marriages.
• Custody, adoption, and foster-care rights for homosexuals, lesbians, and transgendered people.
• The redefinition of the family to include the full diversity of all family structures.
• The access to all programs of the Boy Scouts of America.
• Affirmative action for homosexuals.
• The inclusion of sex-change operations under a universal health-care plan.

Obviously the Elite gay community Tammy Bruce spoke of knows which age is best for “recruiting,” e.g., traumatizing.

More can be said on all the above issues, but my book is not yet written. I will post three quotes from Tammy Bruce (a pro-choice lesbian):

Even if one does not necessarily accept the institutional structure of “organized religion,” the “Judeo-Christian ethic and the personal standards it encourages do not impinge on the quality of life, but enhance it. They also give one a basic moral template that is not relative,” which is why the legal positivists of the Left are so threatened by the Natural Law aspect of the Judeo-Christian ethic. (Tammy Bruce, The Death of Right and Wrong: Exposing the Left’s Assault on Our Culture and Values [Roseville: Prima, 2003], 35.)

...these problems don’t remain personal and private. The drive, especially since this issue is associated with the word “gay rights,” is to make sure your worldview reflects theirs. To counter this effort, we must demand that the medical and psychiatric community take off their PC blinders and treat these people responsibly. If we don’t, the next thing you know, your child will be taking a “tolerance” class explaining how “transexuality” is just another “lifestyle choice”.... After all, it is the only way malignant narcissists will ever feel normal, healthy, and acceptable: by remaking society - children - in their image (Ibid., 92, 206)

... and now all manner of sexual perversion enjoys the protection and support of once what was a legitimate civil-rights effort for decent people. The real slippery slope has been the one leading into the Left's moral vacuum. It is a singular attitude that prohibits any judgment about obvious moral decay because of the paranoid belief that judgment of any sort would destroy the gay lifestyle, whatever that is…. I believe this grab for children by the sexually confused adults of the Gay Elite represents the most serious problem facing our culture today.... Here come the elephant again: Almost without exception, the gay men I know (and that’s too many to count) have a story of some kind of sexual trauma or abuse in their childhood -- molestation by a parent or an authority figure, or seduction as an adolescent at the hands of an adult. The gay community must face the truth and see sexual molestation of an adolescent for the abuse it is, instead of the 'coming-of-age' experience many [gays] regard it as being. Until then, the Gay Elite will continue to promote a culture of alcohol and drug abuse, sexual promiscuity, and suicide by AIDS. (Ibid., 90. 99)